With Dr. Khalil Chisty and his wife and son at my Residence after his aquittal by the Supreme Court.
Dr. Khalil Chishty reminded me of Dr. Manette in Charles Dicken's novel 'A Tale of Two Cities' who was incarcerated in the Bastille for 18 years although he had committed no crime. Of course Dr. Chishty did not spend 18 years in jail, but his bail condition required him to remain in jail throughout his trial which took about 20 years, with the result that during this period he could not go to his home town Karachi and so he could not attend the weddings and other social functions in his family and could not meet many of his family members (many of whom were born after the incident of 1991 in which he was implicated) during this long period. I believe he and Sarabjit Singh and many others were victims of the mindset which makes both Indians and Pakistanis to regard people of the other country as devils instead of as humans. Great injustice was done to Dr. Chishty, but when he came to meet me with his wife and son after the Supreme Court verdict I found him cheerful. He is truly a great man. I told him that India and Pakistan were divided because of the mischievous British policy of divide and rule and the bogus two nation theory, and now we should reunite under a strong secular government, to which he wholeheartedly agreed.
Such outcome underlines the strength of our judicial institution and the spirit of democracy.
ReplyDeleteSir, I am an enthusiastic follower of your blog and I greatly appreciate your candid approach to the issues that India is facing. You do not mince words which sets you apart from the rest the people. I think you are doing a great service to our nation as you have very progressive thoughts. You love India and its people and I think your speech in which you called majority of Indians idiots was grossly misinterpreted. Please keep enlightening us with your ideas/thoughts. Kudos to you, Sir. Respect.
ReplyDeleteSir, I am an enthusiastic follower of your blog and I greatly appreciate your candid approach to the issues that India is facing. You do not mince words which sets you apart from the rest the people. I think you are doing a great service to our nation as you have very progressive thoughts. You love India and its people and I think your speech in which you called majority of Indians idiots was grossly misinterpreted. Please keep enlightening us with your ideas/thoughts. Kudos to you, Sir. Respect.
ReplyDeletereally it is very necessary to enlightened the whole people. because it is unbelievably misinterpreted by everyone and also sir please enlightened them all -about what is communalism ..because they all started to make more communalism out of it
Delete
ReplyDeleteIndia is declared as a secular republic in its Constitution. This is what the preamble to the constitution reads:
"WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens..."
The Constitution of Pakistan also opens with a Preamble and as with other countries, it is the preliminary part of the Constitution in which broad features of the Constitution have been explained.
What Pakistan Constitution reads:
"Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;
And whereas it is the will of the people of Pakistan to establish an order :-
Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed..."
There you go. The Constitution declares Pakistan as a Federal Republic to be under Islam, where as India says it will be Secular.
Now can two nations who are independent since 1947 (just 1 day apart) and for last 65 have theorized, practiced and enforced two completely different set of ideologies based two completely different principles for over half century can come under a Secular Rule?
Thanks,
Warrior For Justice
http://thewarriorforjustice.wordpress.com/
Touche Warrior
DeleteOne meaning of secularism from on-line dictionary.
Delete--- Not bound by monastic restrictions, especially not belonging to a religious order. Used of the clergy ----
Another
--- not concerned with or related to religion ---
'SECULAR' in constitution mean any of these?
If why we have 'Hindu Marriage act' instead of simple 'Marriage act'?
Also why there is Muslim Personal law board that looks after a religious section?
BTW, I feel reuniting the countries is possible as our political and educated elite are not averse to merger India into Pakistan and continue to call its Pakistan and present constitution of Pakistan.
@Annon (a Pakistani, as construed from the comment)
DeleteMay be Justice Katju can answer/elaborate your point or feeling - "...merger of India into Pakistan and continue to call its Pakistan and present constitution of Pakistan..."! After all that is how the "erudite elite" of Pakistan feels!
@thewarriorforjustice: Oops! "ek machhar aadmi ko ...." Nanapatekar in Yeshwanth. I missed to add :-) in the last para.
DeleteSee how difficult English is for we Indians.
"If why we have.....". ".. as our political...".
Still I am construed as Pakistani.
No problems. :-) This is nothing. We Indians understand "secularism" as "minority appeasing". :-)
(To avoid further confusion :-) means sarcasm)
@ annonymous
DeleteYou are the only anonymous in the entire thread other than some below ones writing on some other non-sense not related to the topic.
Even Justice Katju,whatever may be his reason, is putting his name, photo, email everything on this blog.
Ashamed that you even call yourself an Indian!!! If such a hero and big shot, why anonymous throughout? You can not even tell your name or details. Do you have a name or by your own standard a "machhar",which you have proudly announced?
@Sajag Banerjee,
Deletehope you heard sant Kabir.
जाति न पूछौ साधु की, जो पूछौ तो ज्ञान।
मोल करो तलवार का, परा रहन दो म्यान।।
Nay! I am neither saadhu nor I have gyan.
But how do my name and profession matter? Is my comment meaningless, you can say the same. But will it get a meaning say if I am a sitting Judge?
Katju will do anything. He has enough immunity. As PCI chairmen he force his opinions on media in one form or the other.
You are right Mr. Sajag. Even rubbish talk of so called VIPs draws attention and even more valuable talk of common people gets lost in air.
DeleteYou are right Mr. Sajag. Even rubbish talk of so called VIPs draws attention and even more valuable talk of common people gets lost in air.
DeleteThat is one of your best works .
ReplyDeleteThat is one of your best works .
ReplyDeleteSir,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your excellent essay. Wonder whether those youngsters will have the patience to read through and digest what you have discussed with passion. While Napolean said "Religeon is like Opium", I quote below what Swami Vivekananda had to say about astrology. I have combined observations by a psychologist from Michigan university too.
quote unquote..........
This is what Swami Vivekananda had to say about Astrology. "Let stars come, what harm is there ?. If a star disturbs my life, it would not be worth a cent. You will find that astrology and all these mystical things are generally signs of a weak mind, therefore as soon as they are becoming prominent in our minds, we should see a physician, take good food and rest."
In his lecture, 'Man the maker of his destiny' (Complete works of Swami Vivekananda Vol. VIII), Swamiji has the following to say about astrology.
"THIS I lay down as the first essential in all I teach : Anything that brings spiritual, mental, physical weakness, touch it not even with the toes of your feet".
How ironic that the very people who swear by the Great Swami continue to subscribe to this stupidity. Belief in astrology has spread like an epidemic or plague over the world. It is estimated that over a thousand newspapers in North America carry columns in astrological forecasts. A gallop poll showed that more than half of America's teenagers take them seriously. A similar poll carried in India would show over 95% of people of all ages subscribe to astrology.
The disease started thousands of years ago when astronomers believed that the earth was the centre of the universe. Since Copernicus, we know that it is not the earth but the Sun which is the centre of the solar system. That should have knocked out the basic assumption of astrology. It did not because we did not find any cure for sickness of the mind. Statistics and careful reading of birth dates in Who's Who show there is nothing common between people born under the same astrological signs. Nor is there any basis whatsoever in believing that people born under one sign can make better matches with those born in another. Professor Bernard Silverman, psychologist at Michigan State university got records of 2978 married and 478 divorced couples for a specific period of time. He found no co-relation with astrologers predictions. Those married under "compatible" signs married and divorced just as often as those born under "incompatible" signs.Swami Vivekananda was right.
Sir I agree with your views and great insight . I am a youngster and I have learned something from your views . Its great to discuss regarding these topics and law .
DeleteCheers . :)
Thanks. Since you have shown some interest in the subject, I thought I will share the following thought provoking words from Jiddu Krishnamurthy.
Deletequote unquote.............
The Awakening of Intelligence:
J. Krishnamurthy (1895-1986). One of the century's greatest spiritual philosophers, who scorned all formal systems of meditation, advocating instead a free-form but rigorous process of observation and inquiry.
"ONE can see that it is a waste of energy to follow anybody - you understand ? - to have a leader, to have a guru, because when you follow, you are imitating, you are copying, you are obeying, you are establishing authority and your energy is therefore diffused. Do observe this; please do so. Don't go back to your gurus, to your societies, to your authorities, drop them like hot potatoes ... Energy is wasted when you indulge in ideation, in theories: whether there is a soul or no soul, whether there is an Atman or no Atman - isn't it a waste of time, a waste of energy ?. When you read or listen to some saint endlessly, or some sannyasi, making commentaries on the Gita, or the Upanisheds - just think of it! - the absurdity of it! - the childishness of it!. Somebody explains some book which in itself is dead, written by some dead poet, giving it a tremendous significance."
"I can't find a strong enough word to deny the whole world of gurus, of their authority, because they think they know. A man who says "I know", such a man does not know. Or if a man says, "I have experienced truth, distrust him completely". Systems make the mind mechanical, they don't give you freedom, they may promise freedom at the end,but freedom is at the beginning, not at the end.
Truth being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path .. If an organization be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned truth."
@Ram Gopal: Thank you for the quote. Others who have expressed similar sentiments include Buddha and Rajneesh.
DeleteSir,
Deleteregardless my agreement with what Swami Vivekananda and Sri J. Krishnamurthy said. I request to analyze their views from another angle.
I cannot infer that Swamiji rejected the concept of astrology. What he stressed is not to touch methods or paradigm that weaken a man in any way.
He is very much correct about not seeking help of astrology as it can weaken one's morale.
Once again I stress that Swamiji did not REJECT astrology as science but stressed its irrelevance.
Your assertion "Swami Vivekananda is right" is irrational inference.
I cannot guess what kind of life you have. But I can guess that you never came across serious health or financial issue that pushed you to wall.
DeleteImagine one suffering from typical Neurological disorder. Hoping that the person can really afford to consult, best of the Neurologists in the country says this is incurable but only Manageable.
Note: Do not dismiss it as extreme case as there are three important factors are here. One curability, two a specialist and three affordability. As per probability theory the chances of all three coming together is very bleak.
Now what options do that patient have?
1. Understand the reality, tune oneself to live with the problem.
2. Become dejected and let the mind eat his before the disease can.
3. Try for alternative than can be even unknown. This is where astrology comes into picture.
Let us come to the other section involving financial problems.
World wide inventions happening and economies growing but unemployment rate is never coming down but increasing.
I am sure someone (already financially comfortable) will counter saying they failed because hey did not try in right way.
But unfortunately even highly qualified are seeing dead-ends.
Again we can blame corruption, nepotism etc etc. But the ground reality is the system world wide have no scope offer an opportunity to everyone.
Note: I hope you agree with above situation. There is enough data available on Internet to prove this.
What options do they have?
1. Keep trying till end, which could ones life.
2. Compromise and live with what is available. Maybe even begging.
3. Try luck. Once again astrology.
BTW, I would like to remind that astrology is not just prediction but offers some types spiritual remedies.
Interestingly there is another category of people who are not losers as above but greedy.
The loudest mantra today is SUCCESS and more SUCCESS.
Take simple example. A talent person is successful as a senior manager in a big company.
Now enters thought of more success "why not run my own business and make huge money?"
How many of them looking for more SUCCESS meet their objectives?
What if they fail? There is nothing that explains their failure.
They need a escape route to keep up their morale.
Again consult astrology and shift the blame.
One may wonder that above mentioned categories may add up hardly 30% but why 95% are believing in astrology.
Funnily a handful of those approaching astrology see success, which could be highly co-incidental.
But others watching this success do not understand the co-incidence and the belief becomes contagious.
Further...
DeleteThe best way to reject a concept is disproving it using proper methods. In the scientific world people spent entire life to find holes in Theory of Relativity. A few are even successful too. But the did not start their work by with contemptuous assertions like "the disease".
Unless disproved using proper methods Astrology will continue to thrive for above said reasons. An escape route for ones own failures.
DeleteFinally, I would like to highlight hypocrisy of educated Indians.
I am ready to accept that Astrology is pseudoscience or not a science at all.
Have a look at finance and capital markets.
Every morning lakhs of Indian investor glue to TV sets and computers based on 'recommendations' made by market 'experts'.
They use terms like PE ratio, 100/200 DMA etc etc. Of course there are statutory DISCLAIMERS with each recommendation.
But none of them really point to any information or data that really validates any of these factors.
Yet these people are not called cheats and those following their recommendation are not idiots.
thank you PPR. Did I open a pandora's box unwittingly ?. Sorry. I would recommend Paul Ormerod's 'Why most things fail..... and how to avoid it'(ISBN 0-571-22013-4 - UK 8.99 str.) Review. A careful,comprehensible analysis of human rationality's ability to control the world'.
DeleteYou are absolutely right in tour observation that astrology is the best 'escape route' and a great comfort factor to explain everything under the Sun, especially failures where one can attirbute them to the STARS/PLANETS. It also goes well with most Indians who are fatalistic and superstitious. It will be interesting to hear from many others. Good day.
Respected Mr . Ram Gopal those excerpts of speech of the author were truly interesting . :)
Delete" Great injustice was done to Dr. Chishty, but ...." A courageous and characteristic statement indeed. Respected Justice Katju, you have displayed both a very good character and courage.
ReplyDeleteDegree of civilisation of individual, family, society, village, city, state or nation or even of any religion can be measured by the "befitting compensation" of even unconscious infinitisimaly small mistakes. Being your self a retired justice how would yourself you judge the compensation Mr. Chishty or anybody at his place would deserve? How would you measure the quantum and quality of his losses?
Shri Ram, ruler of Ayodhya has set precedents of compensation even by committing suicide along with 3 brothers in Sharayu river as against unethical killing of Wali, though Shri Ram argued such killing as ideal and legal act of commission and or omission.
How much Hindu religion or India as nation is civilised as per such measure?
Looking ahead for your enlightening reply.
Santosh Kagvate
Dear Santosh,
Deleteplease do have your facts right. First Sri Rama did not commit suicide. Simply because suicide is very big sin and against Dharma. I am sure you know Sri Rama descended to preach and practice Dharma.
On contrary he had to repay for Vaali's killing in next incarnation. It is said that Vaali who is reborn as a hunter killed Sri Krishna. This is an example of how god himself could not escape results of Karma.
I feel pained by generalization of Hindu religion. It prescribed best deterrents from one committing even mistakes. 'befitting compensations', 'pardons' are escape routes. Hindu religion prescribed only punishments for sins as one should not escape from even a mistake.
Just as an aside the so called amnesty or pardon was invention of Europe to save Nobles from harsh punishments. I suggest read a bit of medieval European history.
A reversal of the present? A reunited India & Pakistan? is this not a dream of Utopian proportion?
ReplyDeletePakistan's birth was aided by the midwifery of religious separatism and a flawed ideology that was destined to make the new born a failed state. We see it now.
Can the reunited nation be at peace with the antediluvian culture and tribal quagmire we see in the western borders of Pakistan. What do they have to identify and be at peace with a greater National concept of a Secular India in which the present Pakistan is merged?
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I am not a great scholar of History. But i strongly believe acceptance of someone's view is upto one individual. May be today Mr. Katju you are criticising British two nation theory which sounded perfect at that time. May be after some decade our views and believe will sound imperfect to future upcoming society.
ReplyDeleteRupam Chakraborty:
DeleteYou are one of the rare people on this blog, who has made the difference in opinion visible in a clean and concise way. Wish more people had as much sense as you did.
Cheers!
Rupam , you have support. I totally agree with you.
DeleteI could not comprehend how this man performed in court.
ReplyDeleteAfter SC judgement one has to agree Mr. Chisthy is victim. But same cannot be said about Sarabjeet until Pakistani law announces so. But sir this has nothing to do with mindset but security of the respective countries. There will always be mistakes by different people at different levels. Other day people started debating error of judgement in awarding capital punishments. Can we say it is mindset of judiciary? ..
Sir, enough of blaming British for our problems. British might have used divisions in India for their advantage. But the 'divide and rule' theory of British was as flawed as Aryan Invasion.
Exactly , I agree with you contentions . We cannot blame Britishers for our problems , "We WERE" (ideologies and practices and fanaticism ) our problems .
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Delete@Ramgopal Sir,
ReplyDeleteI do not want to drag this too much. But let me add one specific point and I hope you will take it in right spirit.
You recommended a book by some foreign author. It may have right thoughts information. But are we sure it can be applied to entire globe?
My general understanding is the thoughts and philosophy from Europe post-Industrial revolution is more Materialistic (no negative suggestion but fact).
I believe Europe itself is not yet fully come to terms with it. Have a look at http://www.foreverbecoming.com/ for simple and concise thoughts.
I would like to say success or failure depends on the objective. Not on eloquence some popular individual.
For a while, I am ready to agree Indians are fatalistic. But why?
Elite keep saying all Humans are same. If so why Indian with flesh and blood same as any other human on Earth is fatalist?
I have my own reasoning for this. But no I cannot convince anyone as I can never reply to "what happens to the common man on the street?"
I believe that Indians should continue to be fatalistic for the safety of the Earth.
BTW, I would be happy if you can respond to my contention on your interpretation of Swami Vivekananda's stand on astrology.
PS: I can prove astrology is science provided I get same amount of funds spent on Cancer research worldwide. :-)
Good to see your reply. As you have rightly said at the beginning, neither do I wish to drag this further. Hence I would rather reply simply with what is perceived as the dictum for survival in Julius Ceasers (spelling ?) court.
Delete"Veritas odium parit. Suppressio veri, suggestio falsi.". Means "Truth begets hatred. Suppress truth, suggest falshood.". I would imagine that even astrologers would not like the idea of proving their beliefs right with scientific support. As long as it remains axiomatic and not empirical, their business will thrive. However, I agree that there is need them too in society very similar to the need for a "padmavathi" during ancient times in any village. One may call her prostitute or sex-worker, but there was a place for her in the social fabric.
Thanks sir,
DeleteI do not see any meeting point in our debate. Even for the sake of opposing.
I am talking about astrology and not astrologers.
I am talking about inferences and interpretations and you are quoting big people (honestly I could not comprehend these quotes in current context) again and again.
Once again I will be happy if you can respond my specific query on your interpretation of Swami Vivekananda's stand w.r.t. astrology.
Good luck!
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